HREOC Website: National Inquiry into Children in Immigration Detention
Transcript of Hearing - ADELAIDE
Tuesday, 2 July 2002
Please note: This is an edited
transcript of a confidential hearing. This witness later agreed that his
evidence could be made public.
Commissioners:
DR SEV OZDOWSKI, Human Rights Commissioner
MRS ROBIN SULLIVAN, Queensland Children's Commissioner
PROFESSOR TRANG THOMAS, Professor of Psychology, Melbourne Institute
of Technology
MS VANESSA LESNIE, Secretary to the Inquiry
MR ANTHONY HAMILTON-SMITH,
affirmed
Ex-DIMIA Manager from Woomera
DR
OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much. Now, could
I ask you to state your name, address, qualifications, and the capacity
in which you are appearing before this Inquiry?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
My full name is Anthony Hamilton-Smith, I'm currently residing at [address
removed]. The capacity in which I'm appearing is the former Immigration
Manager at the Woomera Immigration and Reception Processing Centre. I
was there from the beginning of May 2000 to the end of May 2001.
.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Now I understand you were the manager of Woomera between May 2000 and
May 2001, so it was about a year?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Yes, it was almost 13 months.
DR OZDOWSKI:
13 months. And your role was to be the top dog in terms of DIMIA?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Can I start with your relationship between you and central office and
the regional office. How much freedom in your actions did you have whilst
in Woomera?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I reported direct to central office, to Detention Operations the majority
of that time - to [name removed]. In theory, the regional office role
was to provide us with support where needed. That support was limited,
erratic and at times rather than assisting with work down there, they
transferred work to Woomera.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Now, what .
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Unlike the other offices.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Now, what really were your responsibilities in Woomera? What are you really
responsible - yes okay, resident, just to look around or .
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
No, they - the responsibilities - I suppose in many ways whenever I've
- were not defined. I defined them myself and I gave, if you like, to
senior ACM management staff, two directions. One, the people in detention
were not criminals. Two, that our role isn't to keep people, but our role
is really to move them through as quickly as possible and legally, to
leave and .
DR OZDOWSKI:
Now .
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I'll just finish, but what I defined my role as was three-fold. One was
the monitoring and ensuring the visa system worked; two, monitoring the
contractor's performance, and three, ensuring, if you like, the well-being
of people in detention.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Monitoring, in my mind, means that you were there to observe and if something
was happening which was against your beliefs, standards, your job was
to raise that issue with somebody else, or was there much more action
associated with the position apart from monitoring?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
The Canberra perspective was that quarterly you were to provide an assessment
report against the detention standards, or if there was something extraordinary
you were to raise it immediately, or it should be raised by an ACM through
an incident report. However, that type of process focuses on events and
generalities after the event, and it does not focus on the causes. I will
give you a prime example, or two examples.
When I arrived there,
there was one Australian teacher, an exceptional teacher, and a number
of qualified people in detention working as teachers. That did have some
benefits but it meant an extraordinary load on that one teacher. Now I
raise that. I also raise that according to staffing bands, detention officers
were under-staffed by 30.
DR OZDOWSKI:
And it was according to the contract you had with ACM?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
No.
DR OZDOWSKI:
No.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
It wasn't that hard and fast in the contract. It was more that they had
to produce specific outcomes, otherwise penalties could be placed on them.
I raised the impact of staff shortages and six-week turnaround times and
prior to the mass break-out in June 2000, I said 'We have staff who are
exhausted, many had done 18 hour shifts, we do not have adequate resources
to prevent any major incident and ensure overall safety and I would like
you to bring some pressure to bear on ACM Sydney to get those 30 staff
up there, preferably some with language skills, mix of sexes, and have
them on deck immediately.'
The response I got,
it was not my business or their business to dictate to the contractors
staffing levels. It was more to focus on the outcomes. Unfortunately that
means you focus on things after the event rather than before the event.
To my mind, in providing services to people for which you have responsibility,
which we do under the legislation, that is a woefully inadequate management
tool and process.
DR OZDOWSKI:
How did you do it, did you ring Canberra, or did that information go through
your quarterly report?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I did a combination of both.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Now, coming back to quarterly reports, they were prepared by you?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Yes, they were. They were not the only mechanism used; often it would
be phone calls, emails, a whole host of other ways.
DR OZDOWSKI:
So one can assume that all these quarterly reports are sitting somewhere
in files in DIMIA and we can get access to them?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
You should be able to. However, at one stage I was instructed to destroy
a quarterly report.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Who instructed you to destroy the quarterly report?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
That came from [name removed]. I subsequently checked it and - [name removed],
it had come from her.
DR OZDOWSKI:
So [name removed] who, as I understand, is in central office, [identifying
details removed], instructed you indirectly.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
. through that man to destroy quarterly reports. What did you do?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I did not destroy it.
DR OZDOWSKI:
So where are the quarterly reports now?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
They should be in Canberra, if that quarterly report is not in Canberra
I may be able to acquire a copy.
MR HUNYOR:
Sorry, which quarterly report are you referring to?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
September 2000.
MR HUNYOR:
Thank you.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
And they objected to a line that I used. I said something along the lines:
'Christmas is coming, the centre's been open almost 12 months, we still
do not have a playground erected. It would be quicker for the people here
to walk the Haj than wait for the erection of play equipment.'
So still - my understanding
is there still is not adequate playground equipment erected, it is now
nearly three years. There is not grass and so on for the kids to stick
under their feet.
DR OZDOWSKI:
What was the reason why it wasn't erected, because it appears a small
expense, so to say?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
It is a quite significant expense actually to erect playground equipment
under the current standards that have been introduced. However, I think
there was a greater concern about legal liability and controlling things
rather than provision in that sense for the children. And at that stage
many of the children, the toys they had were largely soccer balls and
some soft toys, but they needed more activity and often they would play
with stones in - in the dirt, despite the fact that the staff on the ground
organised many things, there was - there was a high concern from the contractor's
office about their own legal liability.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Who would usually be responsible for the building of such facilities and
paying insurance on usage of it?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
The responsibility for - if it was built from the ground up - would have
lain with the contract builders which, at that stage, was [name removed]
with a sub-contract down to [name removed]. .
DR OZDOWSKI:
Coming back to the destruction of documents, or the order to destruct
documents, was it the only occasion that you were asked to destroy documents?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I was directed rather than asked, I was not asked.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes, you were directed.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I was ordered.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes, you were directed. Was it the only direction you received to destroy
official Commonwealth documents relating to that incident?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Yes, it was.
DR OZDOWSKI:
When this direction was made, would you remember the time when it was
made?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
It was just before the visit of Phillip Flood to Woomera to.
DR OZDOWSKI:
To investigate.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
. to do his formal hearings.
DR OZDOWSKI:
I see. And it was just over the telephone, rather than in written form
or e-mail or something like that?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
That's correct, I asked for it in writing.
DR OZDOWSKI:
I see, and you are still waiting?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Yes, it provoked some laughter.
DR OZDOWSKI:
I see, I see. And now, coming to Phillip Flood's visit and the two visits
from the Human Rights Commission and so on, what usually happens at a
detention centre like Woomera when you learn that the Ombudsman or we
or somebody else is coming?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Generally, it is advised to you by Canberra and quite often, they will
send somebody from Canberra over, say, for a media tour. They didn't send
anybody specifically from the Department with Philip Flood although he
had Departmental officers assigned to his team. That was the only incident
of, if you like, censorship, that I came across.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Would he be given, or would we be given, access to everything, or would
you try to direct bodies like ours into certain directions so we didn't
see things which are more ugly over there?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
No, no. We would be quite open with things. I was, in particular, and
would actually ensure that those people who were in detention and who
could be outspoken, whose English was fairly fluent and who could act
as advocates for people, I'd consciously make an effort for them to speak.
I viewed that as
having two benefits. One, that I'd hope, by doing that, it would bring
more pressure to get further improvements and, two, I think there is a
degree of feeling of powerlessness and it's not just a perception amongst
people, and any opportunities that they have to speak out to people that
they think can influence things for the better, it's worth it. It has
- it lessens the tension. It also means that they themselves are doing
something, and often with me making statements about the playground like
that, it was a reflection of the frustration that I could see people feeling,
but often they can tell it even more powerfully and meaningfully than
I can. I don't see it as a positive approach to silence and control people
in detention. I think it's more about managing things.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Quite often people, detainees, during their visits are telling us that
just before we arrived, a number of new initiatives were put in place,
a new teacher was appointed, and better food was served, something was
repainted and so on. Is there any truth in it?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
As for the food, eventually I would eat it myself. Immigration had told
me that we shouldn't because it would look like we are taking food out
of detainees' mouths but I found by getting management to eat the same
food once a week, it was a much better barometer of what was being served
than food committees. No, the food was not changed for them.
Now, I do know on
some occasions, that ACM - frustrations were getting servicing staff on
deck in time, particularly psychologists were miraculously speeded up
when there was a visit, say, from yourself or the Ombudsman coming. There
were regular tidy ups at Woomera because I don't know if you experienced
the winds coming off the desert? Well, they are rated at gale force and
if you don't regularly tidy up, the place becomes a mess for people and
the environment gets worse than it is and it looks like a tip. So they
are just a regular, normal part and a number of the people in detention
are paid for doing that work. It's a regular job for them.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Would you know how much ACM is allocated under the contract per meal for
one person per day?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
It's not allocated money under contract for meals per day at all. It's
an allocation of a fee per detainee per day, an overall fee. Now, initially
when I was there, they had some contractor for catering, [name removed],
and the standard of some of the food I wouldn't consider good. However
that did improve, and eventually they employed a chef who was formerly
one of the chefs at the [hotel name removed] and he made an enormous difference.
ACM taking over the catering themselves made a lot of improvement.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Would you know the amount of money allocated per person per day for total
care?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Let me see. From memory, it was about $140.
DR OZDOWSKI:
What did this money have to cover? Everything including security, psychological
services, food, everything?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Not everything. It didn't cover escorts, you know, like for medical treatment
down to Adelaide.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
And it didn't cover, sort of, major hospital bills, things like that.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Who paid the bills for hospitals?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
The major bills, where it was a significant cost, Immigration picked up.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Basically, everything to Adelaide would be regarded as a significant bill,
wouldn't it?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
No, there wasn't - yes, pretty well, but there wasn't a thought to say,
'Well, this is going to cost too much, we'll pull back'. It was more done
on an as-needs basis. Like, one particular boy, I think, all up on his
health care, we would have spent $65,000. Now, if he had have been a normal
Australian citizen going through the public health system - probably my
own organisation will not like me saying that - he would still be waiting
for the operation.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Who approved payment of that money?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I did.
DR OZDOWSKI:
You. It is always the DIMIA manager approving it or do some of the bills
need to go to Canberra for approval?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
If it's a major one, you would have to put the case across to Canberra,
but that is very rare. It's those huge bills, like $30,000-$40,000, or
ones where you might need oncology service on an ongoing basis which can
run into several hundred thousand. Things like pregnancy, cardiac, those
are just almost run of the mill. They're not viewed as extraordinary.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Did you have some kind of a budget for all this extra?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
There was no budgetary capping.
DR OZDOWSKI:
So, basically, whenever there was a need, you would have signed it and
it was done?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
It was supposed to loosely adhere to the standard waiting times of the
Australian public health system which - there were a number of difficulties,
particularly psychiatric and psychological ones. We experienced on a number
of occasions extreme difficulty with the State Government here, despite
the fact that we were paying as private patients in even getting people
to get psychiatric care. I can remember one instance where a bloke needed
oncology treatment, and the hospital threw him out on the street.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Why was that so?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
They said, 'we needed the bed', and at that stage, we had to run around
to find somewhere for him to stay at night. I'd have to say some of the
state hospitals, their level of service - I'm quite pleased that I haven't
been in them.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Going around different centres, we see that the relationship between DIMIA,
managers and ACM is different. Sometimes it appears that DIMIA has the
upper hand. There are other situations where ACM appears to be top dog
in running daily things.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Okay, all right.
DR OZDOWSKI:
How did it work in Woomera during your time?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
All right. It was made quite clear to me by Canberra on many occasions
that ACM largely calls the tune on day to day management. Now, I think
they have concern about legal liability. I think they thought by distancing
themselves that they would avoid any legal liability later. However, with
[individual ACM managers], we operated very much on a co-operative basis
to try and improve things because the place was still being built, there
was an intense lack of facilities. Early on, yes, you can accept a rationale
for that but as time goes by, that becomes less and less acceptable. Now,
there was a key change in my approach. Those riots that occurred in August,
they were extraordinarily violent, extraordinarily.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Is there a written procedure for separating kids from - when trouble is
happening?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
No, there was not at that stage. That is one of the things that did surprise
me when I arrived at Woomera. There were no written procedures, either
in Canberra or in Sydney, on crucial things that I would have expected
to be available. After all, it was the sixth centre that was opened, and
I did the normal thing of asking around in other centres and said, well,
you know, 'Where is your policy on allegations of child abuse? Where is
your policy on use of restraint?' Now there are some things in the policy
control circulars which are quite useful, but there was not the degree
of policy development that you would have anticipated from what was a
national program.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Mr Hamilton-Smith, maybe I will ask my colleagues to ask some questions.
The only last one I would like to ask is, coming back to that incident
when you were directed to destroy documents, why was that? What do you
think was the purpose or motivation of that direction?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I think they were extremely concerned on reflection that Philip Flood,
the Flood Inquiry, would attribute some blame for the treatment of children
to the head offices of ACM and Immigration.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Your quarterly report contains such evidence which could give some support
for Philip Flood's conclusion in this area?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
That is correct.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Thank you.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Can I just finish?
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes, please.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
The reason following that, and me being locked out of information, I decided
to take a different approach from the one that central office had advocated
of saying, 'Well, largely you are responsible for day-to-day management'.
I decided a more active approach was needed if we were not to have a repeat
of such scenes so I - because reporting after the event, it is just too
late and it's a farcical situation, so I actually said to senior management
people, 'This is what I want to see. I want to see that we are analysing
the incident reports. I want to see that there is progress. I want to
see that the prayer areas are in place. I want to see that there is more
stuff coming through', and would push, for instance - and at times, yes,
I'd threaten.
Now, where I was
able to do things and bring that pressure on I got results. I also made
sure that I would randomly - and the Operations Manager - we would randomly
check on staff at night, early in the morning, things like that, so they
wouldn't know when we would appear.
DR OZDOWSKI:
ACM staff?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Yes, trying .
DR OZDOWSKI:
What - whether they asleep or whether they stayed there? What were you
checking?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Whether they are asleep, whether they are running an unauthorised operation,
whether Sydney has got them running another operation. The unattached
minors are asleep and in bed, rather than roaming around and getting up
to mischief, that the staff aren't hiding behind a building smoking cigarettes
rather than seeing what's going on. They're observing if, you know, buildings
are being vandalised, falling apart, they have an idea in their areas
whether there's a person that needs assistance.
Like at one stage
we had an [age removed] Afghani woman who ended up having difficulty walking.
She was [age removed] with a daughter [age removed] suffering from [a
disability].
DR OZDOWSKI:
How long did they spend in the detention centre?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Nine months.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Nine months?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I think, and I had to argue with my people in Canberra to get them sent
to Sydney on release [identifying details removed], and they said, 'No,
the Minister does not allow anyone to go to Sydney'. I said, 'Well, if
you want her to go interstate, she will end up going to Sydney but she
may not make it. What do you want, somebody dead on the bus? Finally they
relented and we sent her to Sydney.
DR OZDOWSKI:
I will ask now.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Sorry.
DR OZDOWSKI:
. Professor Thomas to ask some questions?
PROF THOMAS:
So you are currently on leave from DIMIA?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Yes, I am.
PROF THOMAS:
What do you think about the impact of Woomera on the staff in general,
including the ACM officers?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Those that don't shut themselves off - they say, 'this isn't my responsibility',
they do fine. Those that care, nearly all of them I know have either left
or have got Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I've come across at least
15 people I know. A couple have been told they will never work again.
PROF THOMAS:
Do you think the situation would be improved or better if DIMIA takes
control of the running of Woomera instead of ACM?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I think unless they put staff in that have some understanding or appreciation
of the various cultures, I don't necessarily think it will improve. It
will improve - hang on - it will improve in the sense of logistics and
supplies on concrete goods coming in, but in terms of human care not necessarily,
because there's been a shift in the immigration culture from the people
department to a control department.
MS LESNIE:
Perhaps I could ask one question and that is; your role as the guardian
of the unaccompanied minors, you say in your statement that you took that
position very seriously and I was wondering what it is that you did in
that guardianship role?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I insisted that there be at least one male, one female detention officer
allocated to the minors and they be consistent, continuous. I insisted
that there be a psychologist assigned to them. I insisted that there be
a weekly report of everybody and everything, no matter how small, come
in, that I get copies of it. We also implemented a system of them having
a different band around their ID card. It wasn't to pinpoint them so much
as to say, if they were lining up for meals and they were being jostled
by some older men that they were immediately recognised by the detention
officers and they were told to act in a parental role, to resolve it,
support the boy. I also - normally if I wasn't in Court or facing another
Inquiry, I would see them once a fortnight myself.
I also told one of
my staff - 'I want you to keep an eye on - just go and see them', [name
removed], who because she has a gentleness there. And in addition I reinforced
[to] the boys that they needed to support each other as well. We accommodated
them together, around families rather than single men. An additional thing
we did - or I did - because they didn't have their parents who would explain
about the whole process of their application. The immigration theory is,
tell our lawyers. They were minors so I ran a couple of sessions for them
and had them ask questions, you know, even explaining down to the Federal
Court, where they could complain, how they could get forms, all of that.
Actually, most of that was videoed, it is somewhere in ACM at Woomera.
Now I know my own
organisation frowned upon that, but I had a legal responsibility to the
boys rather than a bureaucratic separation. Now we also would make sure
they went to school and how they were doing. A couple of times, [I would]
go and play table-tennis with them. I know that seems silly when you are
very busy but how do you become accessible to them and sometimes you have
to do things like that. I'm - how do you put it - when I was there, I
almost felt proud of them because they didn't have their parents, they
did the best at school. They were doing better than the other kids. Their
behaviour was good.
They were a good
group of boys. I find that very distressing and I've heard since that
they staged a sort of mini riot, five of them attempted to self harm including
hanging themselves. They are a good group of boys, very good group. I
just can't understand how that has come about. The expectations, often
put upon by parents who may have sent them out, are huge. They have stresses
that the other children don't face. A number of them aren't what they
claim, you know, Pakistani rather than Afghani but that is not a reason
to expose them or persecute them.
They have a difficulty
being alone and that adds another degree of pressure upon them that is
extreme. You can see it and they need to feel that somebody cares about
them rather than it is just an institution, and [name removed] was very,
very good in just going and seeing if there was a problem. I used that
almost as an audit mechanism. She would come and say, 'Look, [name removed]
is not well but he won't tell me what it is. Do you think you could go
and have a talk to him?' And it worked but it wasn't perfect, but you
have to use what you've got sometimes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Mr Hamilton-Smith we have run out of time.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I'm sorry.
DR OZDOWSKI:
We were not - we would like to talk to you much longer but there are some
other witnesses waiting. Could we perhaps reserve a right if it is possible
to give you a call in case we would like to clarify some details .
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
I would be very - yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
.in the context of the writing of the report and my personal thank you
and also thank you for your contribution to this Inquiry. I understand
also that you wrote to colleagues of yours who would like to give the
evidence here.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
They will make arrangements. [Identifying details removed].
.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Please continue encouraging people. We would be willing to receive any
written material or would also be willing to arrange further interviews
or meetings, whatever you need. I'm from time to time in Adelaide, I would
be willing to meet or, if it is necessary, I will ask the Secretary to
the Inquiry to come and meet with the people especially.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
There's something I was after, but the teacher who was there at the time,
there's a lot more that she wrote, but she said something like, 'The facility
itself was always a work in progress, not only physically but demands
to appease and sate, all has its toll. The time was self-depreciating
[sic], not only to detainees but the crew working there' and much of that,
along those lines. But she has given a feel for what the place was in
almost poetic words, and if you like I will see if I can get the full
copy for you.
DR OZDOWSKI:
We would appreciate it.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Because I don't think I've heard words used quite so well as what she
did.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Thank you very much, Mr Hamilton-Smith.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH:
Thank you, and I hope you can improve something as there are things I
still want to.
Last
Updated 18 July 2004